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Hi Russell
yes this all makes sense and is a fair calculation of sailors but it only gives a handicap of the average sailor using that class of dinghy not the boat design and spec.
A good sailor is getting an advantage if there are a lot of poor sailors using the same class which would appear to be the case with the Laser which has gone from 1070 to 1104 dispite have made upgrades in sail design and rig controls in the last 20 years.
The Aero is generally sailed by competent sailors who have moved from other classes or young talented ones; that are winning Open events, who would have started in an old Laser years ago.
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01/05/2025 11:48:00
Mark1654
Posts: 16
I am interested in this, and in particular whether the concerns about PYs are for this year or for previous years as well.
The RYA have changed the calculation method this year and I think it has made a big difference to the local handicaps they have suggested at our club. I am less sure about the impact on national handicaps.
The calculation is supposed to discard "poor performers" and then calculate the acheived PY for the not poor performers in each race and average those. It doesn't discard anyone from the top of the fleet.
The calculation for this year goes like this:-
Take the top 2/3 of the race fleet, take the median of their corrected times, discard all boats not within 110 percent of that time. Take the remaining boats and take the mean of their time to give a "standard corrected time". Use the standard corrected time and elapsed times to calculate the acheived PY. Average the acheived PYs for each class to give a recommended PY.
In previous years the calculation has been different and the mean corrected time was used instead of median and boats not within 105% of that time were discarded.
I have analysed a few (seven) races at our club from last season using both methods. In the races I looked at, the change from mean to median made no difference at all but the increase to 110% made quite a big difference in some of the races. Using 110% included more boats including novice racers who I would have thought should be discarded as poor performers.
I think this makes a difference because different classes are sailed at the top and bottom of the fleets. I think that in general only more experienced racers will justify the expense of an Aero while novices might start with older classes like Lasers or others.
The change to the RYA method means that more performances down the fleet are captured. That will favour their PYs and penalise boats only sailed at the top of the fleet.
As far as local handicaps are concerned there are some strange effects. The national PY for the Aero 7 and another class differ by 12. Our RYA recommended local handicaps for the Aero 7 and that class differ by 76.
I hope this all makes sense. What do you think?
Russell
Reply
The RYA have changed the calculation method this year and I think it has made a big difference to the local handicaps they have suggested at our club. I am less sure about the impact on national handicaps.
The calculation is supposed to discard "poor performers" and then calculate the acheived PY for the not poor performers in each race and average those. It doesn't discard anyone from the top of the fleet.
The calculation for this year goes like this:-
Take the top 2/3 of the race fleet, take the median of their corrected times, discard all boats not within 110 percent of that time. Take the remaining boats and take the mean of their time to give a "standard corrected time". Use the standard corrected time and elapsed times to calculate the acheived PY. Average the acheived PYs for each class to give a recommended PY.
In previous years the calculation has been different and the mean corrected time was used instead of median and boats not within 105% of that time were discarded.
I have analysed a few (seven) races at our club from last season using both methods. In the races I looked at, the change from mean to median made no difference at all but the increase to 110% made quite a big difference in some of the races. Using 110% included more boats including novice racers who I would have thought should be discarded as poor performers.
I think this makes a difference because different classes are sailed at the top and bottom of the fleets. I think that in general only more experienced racers will justify the expense of an Aero while novices might start with older classes like Lasers or others.
The change to the RYA method means that more performances down the fleet are captured. That will favour their PYs and penalise boats only sailed at the top of the fleet.
As far as local handicaps are concerned there are some strange effects. The national PY for the Aero 7 and another class differ by 12. Our RYA recommended local handicaps for the Aero 7 and that class differ by 76.
I hope this all makes sense. What do you think?
Russell
Reply
01/05/2025 11:23:00
Russell
Posts: 19
Unfortunately the PY system has some limitations as it has too many variables; sailing conditions, different water conditions (sea , lake and rivers), ability of the sailors. Also the top results and bottom results are not included. Then after all that there is no accountability to the specs of the boat design and rig size. A RS Aero 9 has a similar spec to a Solution (only a weight advantage of -15kgs). The Solution has the similar no to an Aero 6. So the PY are based on the sailors in a class not the boat design.
The only fair way to measure is to have all the classes sail the same course in same conditions by the same sailors.
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30/04/2025 22:44:00
Mark1654
Posts: 16
So brusque for my post which I clearly wrote was my opinion.
I have finished a close second to the North American champ at our local regatta. I'm no slouch. Our ILCAs are at their very best my equal. When I'm in an aero 5 and sailing next to a radial, the radial and 5 are similar upwind, but the radial is faster downwind. Take what you want from that.
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I have finished a close second to the North American champ at our local regatta. I'm no slouch. Our ILCAs are at their very best my equal. When I'm in an aero 5 and sailing next to a radial, the radial and 5 are similar upwind, but the radial is faster downwind. Take what you want from that.
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30/04/2025 20:07:00
Mandryd
Posts: 2
How is this context? "I've won every aero racing series at our club for like 8 years. In the past couple of years the ILCA was added into the fleet and since then, the main boats I worry about are the 4.7 and radials, especially when the breeze picks up (I sail aero 5/7)"
How good are you? How good are they? That would be context .. if you're an Aero World Champion and they've never won a ILCA Open meeting then you've got a case; that's what we need to know.
The PN is a data exercise from returns all around the country, there is no subjectivity to it. I'll say it again, there is no element of "should be", or the boat's potential speed; it is how fast they are actually being sailed in the real world.
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How good are you? How good are they? That would be context .. if you're an Aero World Champion and they've never won a ILCA Open meeting then you've got a case; that's what we need to know.
The PN is a data exercise from returns all around the country, there is no subjectivity to it. I'll say it again, there is no element of "should be", or the boat's potential speed; it is how fast they are actually being sailed in the real world.
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30/04/2025 16:08:00
Spike
Posts: 5
In my opinion, rhe aero vs ilca numbers are wrong in favor of the ILCA (at least for 4.7 and radial versus aero 5/7). I haven't sailed against full rigs or aero 9 to compare. The radial is slightly faster than the aero 5 (despite Portsmouth saying the reverse). The only time the numbers get less bad is when the wind is super light.
To give context, I've won every aero racing series at our club for like 8 years. In the past couple of years the ILCA was added into the fleet and since then, the main boats I worry about are the 4.7 and radials, especially when the breeze picks up (I sail aero 5/7)
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To give context, I've won every aero racing series at our club for like 8 years. In the past couple of years the ILCA was added into the fleet and since then, the main boats I worry about are the 4.7 and radials, especially when the breeze picks up (I sail aero 5/7)
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30/04/2025 13:22:00
Mandryd
Posts: 2
People need to understand that the PN is nothing to do with the potential performance of the boats and is ONLY about the average ACTUAL performance of the sailors. Sailors of the same ability, in different classes, across a range of conditions should have corrected times very similar across the season. I sail against some of the best young ILCA sailors and best Europe sailors in the country and struggle to beat them. I beat them sometimes when conditions particularly suit the Aero, or when they have made an obvious error and I have sailed faultlessly, but generally not. I have a decent sailing CV but not as good as theirs, so get pretty much what I expect. I reckon the PN for the Aero 6 is about right.
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28/04/2025 17:06:00
Spike
Posts: 5
PY Handicaps can never be "fair", just look at the results of the Bloody Mary every year......but my club takes the RYA numbers, and then looks at the results in the other clubs in our Harbour, and the results in are own club over the previous years; and then will make some adjustments as they see fit.
One has to accept there is no "one size fits all" handicap system for all the different classes, with another problem coming from the standard of the helms in each class. The Lasers have a large range of abilities, while the International 14, for instance, is the opposite....!
Enjoy your 6......I love mine!
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One has to accept there is no "one size fits all" handicap system for all the different classes, with another problem coming from the standard of the helms in each class. The Lasers have a large range of abilities, while the International 14, for instance, is the opposite....!
Enjoy your 6......I love mine!
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28/04/2025 13:54:00
Happygoingsolo
Posts: 3
28/04/2025 09:55:00
Roger Fowler
Posts: 4
In my preferred Aero 6 rig it's always seemed tough racing against any of the Laser/Ilca rigs, (4, 6 or 7) on PY handicap. I concede that some of that will be down to me, but I'm talking about average club sailors in the main. The new PY's have made the Aero 6 a little more handicapped and the Laser/Ilcas (two of them) less so, so a bit tougher still. I know this is an impossible debate, we all think we are overhandicapped (!) compared to other classes, but is there any consensus out there of how the Aero PY is working compared to other classes?
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24/04/2025 10:23:00
Bruce
Posts: 6
